Thursday, 22 November 2012

The Game You Cannot Win

or,

 

"How I'm Still Holding onto the Fantasy that I can Change my NParents"



by Quercus

I've made reference before to a game that cannot be won (the game you, the scapegoat adult child, plays with your narcissistic parent(s) - I'm certainly not the first person to characterize this as a game, I am simply borrowing the metaphor here!), and I wanted to expand upon it a little because my awesome shrink had some fantastic insight on the matter.

There's some prerequisite reading for this post, so I'd like to refer you to The Pathological Triad post first, in case you aren't familiar with the roles of Victim-Persecutor-Rescuer. If you think you're the victim, think again! In this game, you're positioned anywhere but there!

A post on Jonsi's blog (Open Your Eyes and See) contained an image of a woman burying her head in her hands and the caption:

"Playing the victim has many advantages. For example: you're much less likely to be held accountable."

And it's such a good caption, it inspired me to write this post.

At my weekly psychologist's appointment, I learned the following: though I had long since accepted that my parents cannot (WILL NOT) change, I apparently haven't given up trying to modify their behaviour.

I am simply using another tactic. Where I have accepted that they will not change their selves (check!), I have failed to accept that I can't somehow construct a situation in which I can force them to modify their behaviour toward me while still maintaining their original diseased personalities.

Ah. He caught me. I didn't realise this was a problem, too.

He points out that I'm still feeling responsible to change the situation for the better. That I'm still wracking my brains trying to engineer a suitable social construct in which it becomes possible for me to deal with them on a regular or even reduced basis (Low Contact). And not just for me, either, but for their benefit as well. I'm still taking on the role of architectural engineer in my family, feeling it's my responsibility to go back to the drafting table (or AutoCad!) again and again until I get it right for all involved.

I'm apparently "desperately searching for that lever to pull or button to press" to enact some sort of reluctant 'truce' between the army of my parents and me.

Switching metaphors, what I want, truthfully, is for them to accept that the game has changed. New rules. Strictly enforced boundaries. If I don't like how they are playing my game (I've taken control, you see), then I will walk. Forever.

I want to use the threat of my leaving and 'cutting them out of my life' (which I have already been accused of, ha!) to modify their behaviour sufficiently so I can tolerate any sort of superficial relationship between us.

Q of RumblestripQ recently said somewhere that there are two kinds of ACoNs: "those who have gone No Contact, and those who will".

I didn't believe it. I also don't like all-or-nothing black-and-white statements like these out of principle (for starters, my EF uses them all the time because he believes they make him sound wise. They don't. And secondly, there are very few things in the universe, particularly in human experience, that exist as dichotomies (either one or the other, without overlap). Ironically, my last post featured abuse of this very same tautology I'm complaining about now, so what do I know?!).

But as of today, I'm starting to think that this rigid statement might have significant validity, though I will make the concession that people and the relationships between people are too difficult to define so easily (again, my last post completely ignores this sentiment, so think what you will!).

The reason for my softening up to the "No Contact, or will go No Contact" logic is that my shrink supports the notion (at least, in my case he does):

"You have no alternative to 'playing the game'. You either keep playing the role of Persecutor and Rescuer, or you QUIT."

Quit = No Contact. Forever.

In my family, my NParents are firmly in the role of Victim. They will not budge from it. For anything. I've given examples in the past of heinous crimes committed against my person at a young age (by someone other than my parents), and they have still found a way to permanently embed themselves in the role of Victim and me as Persecutor and Rescuer in even this extreme instance. (I'm the Persecutor for "making them feel guilty" by not simply forgetting about being raped. I'm also the Rescuer because if I want Mummie to stop crying, I'd better not tell anyone about what happened to me and just plain forget about it!). If that's not sick and evil, I don't know what is!

I said to my Psychologist, "I feel as if I'm beating my head against a brick wall!" I don't remember exactly what the context of that was, but he ran with the statement and said this:

"That's a perfect metaphor - you are repeatedly injuring yourself in order to try to bring about change in them!"

Oh. I really saw it differently. I saw it as me "putting the ball in their court". It's up to them whether or not they want to play by the rules. If they want a relationship with me, they have to play nicely. What's so bad about this? Doesn't this put me in a position of relative power? Aren't I safe up here?

Well apparently not. Here's the thesis:

Whenever I interact with my FOO, in any context, to any extent, I'm "in the game". I am then forced to oscillate between the roles of Persecutor and Rescuer at the whim of my NM, who calls the shots. I can try to wrest control of the game from her, but I won't have support of the other players. NM will always control how the game is played. And I will forever be either the Persecutor or the Rescuer.

I can be murdered. Raped. Defrauded. Beaten to a pulp. Horsewhipped. Mocked. Run down. Slandered. It doesn't matter what happens to me, and my innocence or relative involvement will be unimportant (Manslaughter, Aggravated Assault, Murder in the First - it doesn't affect my lot what my abuser is charged with). I will NEVER be afforded "victim status" in my family.

Ironically, I've been accused time and time again of playing the victim myself. I'm sure I've tried. The reason why it was pointed out and I was punished for it was simple:

My NM is the only TRUE Victim in our FOO! She alone may sit upon the Throne of Victimhood.

And why? Well it's exactly as Jonsi's picture says - there are benefits to sitting in that position. It can never be your fault, at least, it can't be completely your fault. Someone else must share the blame! My NM has done so many evil and heartless things to me in my lifetime, but it's never been her fault at all. I always, ALWAYS brought these abuses down on myself. Even when I was a toddler, apparently. I was the Persecutor when I was born. I wrecked her figure. I left scarring. I gave her post-partum depression. I prevented her from getting proper rest. I caused her boobs to sag. As I got older, I was still the Persecutor for all these reasons (and more and more by the day!), but I also got the added responsibility of being the Rescuer.

"Your mother is crying her heart out in her bedroom because of you! You're breaking her heart!"

I remember clearly hearing this on one particularly confusing instance when I was eight. Beats me what I did - I was an angel of a kid (ask any of my teachers!), and I was understandably terrified to do anything to hurt anyone, least of all my emotionally fragile mother!

I had to lose weight to stop my mother from dying from a broken heart. Wear the clothes she needed me to wear. Brush my hair better. Clean up the house more. Smile more in public - make my mother look better to others! Tell people I was happy no matter what!

"They think I'm a bad mother!" she'd wail, running dramatically down the hall to her room and slamming the door shut to sob herself to sleep and starve herself by refusing to eat. EF would come down hard on me, always. Spankings, but more typically angry dressings-down in front of my younger siblings, who soon learned to blame me for killing their mother.... She's still alive and quite well today, I ought to mention!

So what am I still doing that's causing me pain and landing me in the Psychologist's office every week, crumpled and sobbing? I'm RESCUING. Oh yes, I'm rescuing.

I'm brainstorming. I'm running projected models through my brain looking for design flaws. I'm building mock-ups. I'm structurally engineering a new family dynamic that will work for everyone and which will finally let me off the hook of having to abandon them forever and never look back!

And are they doing any work at all? Are they truly interested in helping me out, as they claim?

My Psychologist gave me this look that makes me feel like he's sizing me up for a straitjacket, and said, slowly and quietly,

"What does history tell you about your parents? When you were small, and the problems between you far less complex, did they try to modify their behaviours then? Did they send you to a child psychologist? Or did they read books on parenting and try different techniques on you? Did they sit down and talk with you about your feelings, ever? Did they, in short, ever do anything to suggest that they were interested in putting any effort in whatsoever to your relationship? To your emotional well-being?

No?

Do you think it's reasonable to assume that they will be willing to concede at all in any respect now? Is it reasonable to expect that they will be interested in change, even in the slightest? Compromise? Open to trying something new? Even if it costs them nothing, will they try it?"

The answer is clearly no.

Not only are my NM and EF "lifers" in the Victim role, they also refuse to allow me to rescue them after having cast me as Rescuer. They don't want me to succeed! They don't want to change at all, and by rescuing them, I'd be uprooting them from their beloved sinkhole of victimhood! They probably don't even want to give me the satisfaction of knowing that I helped them, even if they wanted a particular change!

My NParents often say that I "have to help [them]". That I "need" to "help them" to be happy or understand or whatever. But in all my many, many ill-conceived or even carefully planned attempts to "help them", they have dug in their feet and refused to budge. I've tried pulling, pushing, yanking, levering, platforming, dragging, dead-lifting, you name it. They could climb out themselves, but they don't want to.

I eventually have to give up. I am sad and defeated. And this makes them happy, so for awhile all is peaceful. I'm miserable and they've succeeded.

But then the unexpected happens - I start to get happy again. Other aspects of my life are satisfying, and I start smiling. It is now when they call me Persecutor, cry out that they are being done wrong, that I am "killing them". Once they hook me, they call on me to Rescue them.

And around and around it goes.

"Your mother is not as innocent or as uninvolved as she makes herself out to be. She is quite active in all of this, though she masquerades as the helpless victim."

Never forget that the best 'traps' are the ones that don't look like traps. Think of a someone feigning an injury to draw you close, only to find out that they are bigger and stronger and have it in mind to kill you! The real bad guys play upon the pity of the good guys. The humanitarianism of the good guy is often their downfall. N's know this. This is how they exploit our admirable moral strengths and make them our weaknesses.

And so I come to a close in this post. Here's the take-home messages:
  1. If you have ANY relationship at ALL with your FOO, you're still in the game. 
  2. If you're sick of the game and don't want to be put in the impossible position(s) anymore, you have no other viable option but to go NO CONTACT*.
  3. Your admirable traits and qualities, what makes you different from the Narcissist, is what the Narcissist uses against you. Because you aren't a Narcissist yourself, your only option again is to remove yourself from the game. Quit and go NO CONTACT.
  4. Don't ignore the past. Learn from it. Have they ever attempted to change anything for your benefit? Ever? No? Then don't be naive - as they get older and more stuck in their ways, they become less and less likely to change. If they couldn't do it when it was relatively easy to do so (when you were an easily manipulated and innocent child), you can bet they won't be able to now!
  5. Don't make the mistake of thinking your NParents are emotionally crippled and dying of broken hearts. It's just a trap - they're feigning injury to draw you in. Feeling guilty about not helping them? Send through a third-party the contact information of a psychologist in their area. If they truly need help, they'll know to get it. The truth is that they know they don't need help. It's a bluff. Keep up the poker face - don't fold!
*this reminds me of Suicide. Suicide is virtually NEVER about dying, but is about 'ending the pain'. The human brain comes up with the idea of suicide when it feels it is trapped and there are no other options. If you are feeling suicidal, tell someone (1 800 SUICIDE, or a friend, or better yet a mental health professional. Tell everyone you trust. Get support). But also know that the impulse of suicide exists because your unconscious mind sees no other escape. There is an escape. It's "No Contact". And if you can't go "No Contact" today, not to worry. Get a therapist. Get a support group. Start a blog! Comment here! Get the support you need to gain enough strength. Then you will have the option of "No Contact". The glorious, undreamed-dream of freedom from the oppressive psychic regime of your NFOO! Dream the impossible dream - it's not impossible, it just takes a little preparation!


(Updated): I wanted to add a link to a website that I first saw Caliban's Sister draw attention to. It's an author by the name of Demian Yumei, and she writes about all sorts of useful NPD topics, including this one, Feigning Sorrow. My NM does this, and I would have worked this reference into the body of this post had I heard about it in time.

24 comments:

  1. I spent over 60 years hoping to do or say the right thing so they'd love me. Then I realized, it wasn't that I was unlovable it was that they were incapable of love. The dysfunction was their's not mine.

    Next, I learned that the only one I could control or modify was me and the only way to end the game was to walk away.

    Even with that knowledge it took me years to finally walk away. Why? Simple. Accepting something on an intellectual level is far easier than accepting it on an emotional level when we have been conditioned/manipulated to be overwhelmed by feelings of guilt and responsibility.

    The only happiness you are responsible for is your own.

    BTW I have been accused of "killing" my NM for as long as I can remember...she's 90!

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    1. Words of wisdom! Thanks Mulderfan! Also, thank you most of all for having patience and understanding that everyone needs to get there on their own steam. You can't force people to learn lessons, can you? (Look who I'm asking - you're the teacher, you tell me!). ;-)

      Kara and I were talking about how all Narcissists use the same language, like there's some sort of NDictionary or NSpeak Style Guide or something.

      They do LOVE hyperbole, don't they? You never hear, "This upsets me", "this really upsets me". In fact "this" is replaced by "YOU", and they always jump straight into:

      You're killing me!
      You're breaking my heart!
      You're doing this to hurt me!
      You're cutting me out of your life!"
      You're destroying the family! You're ripping us apart!"

      All or nothing with them. If it wouldn't make the script of a day-time soap, they won't say it.

      I feel like starting a movement to 'plain language'. No more superlatives. No more hyperbole.

      "I am moderately inconvenienced by your actions, NFOO. The stress that dealing with you causes me is causing mild intestinal upset and dreams with disturbing images. I am also losing 10-15% of my income on therapists bills, which leaves me with slightly less savings than I would prefer. I find myself failing to thrive."

      Doesn't quite tug at the heart strings as much, does it? I love reading Upsi's posts on her search string terms - the sick f*cks go looking for "Words to make my estranged daughter cry"! Eeew, eew, eew!

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  2. Hi QG! I meant to say malignant narcissist.
    I am no fan of absolutes either. Our humanity is generated and
    sustained by the humanity we find in fellowship with others. Putting arbitrary restraint on this interface is no way to broaden our horizon's. And I am loath to put conditions on something as unimpeachable as the love a child has for a parent.
    But I can do without their lunacy.
    Even a lower echelon narcissist is an insufferable bastard.
    The only way I have found to win is not to play the game.
    It's sad that a parents obsession with, (help me out here) what ever the hell they are obsessed with, being right, or being the center of attention, or role playing, supersedes their instincts as a parent, but we can't help that.
    They abdicated their humanity, and any sense of decency, long ago.
    I don't know if they lost this by degrees, or if they made a decision to be this way, but they are incorrigible.
    We are not denying them progeny.
    We are saving ourselves before they consume us completely.



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    1. Oh, LOVE IT!

      "We are not denying them progeny."

      This is the best statement! I want to draft it into a legally binding contract!!! :-D

      Sorry for the misquote! Thanks for putting it straight (and then some - this is a fantastic comment; really appreciate it! Thanks for sharing that for you too "winning" required not playing the game.).

      I've also always wondered if there was a climatic scene in their lives where they, as you say, "abdicated their humanity", or if they never really found it to begin with, or if it was debrided over time...

      What absolutely fascinates me is the idea that we ACoNs have (likely) very similar upbringings to our Narc-Parents. Only we went one way, they went another (by degrees, or by a single pivotal decision, I don't know!).

      This has scary consequences on one hand - we may not be as different as we would like, or we may be in danger of also 'slipping to the dark side'.

      But I really think the most CRUCIAL point to seeing ACoNs and Narcs as two sides of the same coin is that somehow N's must have chosen to carry on a vicious, hateful cycle rather than rebel against it.

      (I can't help all the Star Wars references - we really are The Rebel Alliance!).

      Heck, maybe that's why they hate seeing us happy/healthy/well/alive; they weren't able to rebel and get out the way we did/are doing. Maybe that's truthfully what they object to. I can't tell you how many times my NM's complained about virtually anything good in my life as being "unfair" to her. Unfair how?! She made her bed, I made mine. You only get to lay in the one you made! :-)

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    2. Also, just to be clear, I really hope I didn't seem to imply that your wisdom was of the same bumper-sticker variety of my EF's, q! :-) It's really not!

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  3. I know it's hard to not be an over apologetic ACON, but I appreciate your follow up. And I am pretty sure you quoted me perfectly.
    I don't think I said what I meant.
    I think I could do low contact with an N. Even a complete loon.
    I did it for decades with my mother, and would have continued to do so, if not for her stroke.
    I get the feeling most of you guys had more face time with your mothers than I did. I can tell by how you express yourself that your mother(s) were very crafty about commandeering your lives and getting inside your heads. I didn't get that from mine.
    Until I moved in to care for her.

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    1. I think you raise another interesting angle, q!

      Perhaps "Low Contact" versus "No Contact" has as much to do with the waning patience of the ACoN as it does the aggression of the NM/NF.

      Let's assume all children have nearly unlimited patience with their parents and will wait to the metaphorical end for their parents to show them unconditional love.

      Someone who's NParent is less aggressive can probably keep that door open indefinitely, always hoping that the heartless one will "open up" or "come around", or that their icy hearts will melt.

      But those whose NParents are far more aggressive, needy, controlling, demanding, abusive, they have their reserves worn out much faster. And they much more quickly reach the "Go/No-Go" relationship termination decision. For me, I had two choices: Suicide, or move towards "No Contact" (still on the "No Contact" journey - it's not a quick decision by any means).

      I think it's a simple matter of survival. Admittedly, my NM hasn't been all that terrible in the last year or so (probably by virtue of severely limited contact, ha!). But her assaults have been escalating as she feels me slipping out of her CONTROL.

      Even these assaults, as inhumane and melodramatic and manipulative as they are, do not even approach the maliciousness she's shown me as a growing child, and particularly as a teenager and young adult.

      And yet even these 'lesser' affronts result in far greater reactions within me. I believe that there are two reasons (possibly three) for this:

      1. My psychologist points them out to me, and has given me the "go-ahead" to start questioning them (wouldn't dare think ill of my mother 'til relatively recently in my life!).

      2. With age comes wisdom. The pattern is too great to ignore anymore, even if I wanted to.

      3. HYPERSENSITIVITY. Yes, I've been accused of being 'overly sensitive' my whole life. But did my retarded NParents ever question WHY an otherwise intelligent and social child would be so? Some of my teachers did. Some of my friend's parents did. And my husband, psychologist, and a few of my bosses did. They all figured it out LONG before I did - you only become hypersensitive to something when CHRONIC/REPETITIVE ABUSE OCCURS!

      So now, my stupid NParents are actually correct in saying I'm "hypersensitive". They hypersensitized me! It's simple Pavlovian psychology - if you beat the crap of your dog every time it begs for love and affection, it's going to be scared to come close! And then of course, the heartless (and incredibly stupid) owner is going to loudly complain that their dog is a 'retard' when it gets nervous about human interaction (I've seen this, haven't you? Or a similar example?).

      If we all think about it, it becomes abundantly clear who caused the problem. It's never the stupid dog or helpless child - it's the adult with the power and the brain that is to blame.

      It's very hard to pin blame on someone firmly entrenched in their "victim pit". My NParents commonly would say, "Well, it takes TWO to fight!". They would ALWAYS give me an equal share in the blame.

      Was it right to share the blame equally between an adult and a child in conflict?

      No, it isn't.

      Narcissistic Parents attribute adult motives to children. I've seen it, and I firmly believe it to be the case. The children aren't being children in questioning this, or misbehaving in such and such a way - they are "deliberately" attempting to upset the parent. (I've seen a narcissistic friend accuse her pre-verbal child of intentionally upsetting her, or flirting with the guy the mother is interested in! She accuses her baby daughter of sexual seduction! And she doesn't think that's insane!).

      This is just my opinion, but it's one I strongly hold. I probably should have written all of this in a post.

      :-)

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  4. I always described my repeated attempts with my FOO as putting myself on the train tracks in front of a runaway train. I kept doing it even though my parents ran me over every time.

    I also had my share of guilt trips from my EF about how I made my mother cry. "She cries all the time because she feels having kids hasn't been worth it." I mean, seriously? WTF?

    Great post.

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    1. Hasn't been worth WHAT exactly?! Ohhh, that's telling, isn't it?! >:-) What DO they expect to receive out of having children exactly? I'd love to hear an honest answer to that. ;-)

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    2. I never thought to ask them that. Maybe I should've. Not bothering now. NC has freed me in ways I didn't expect. It's still sad and difficult though.

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    3. I can't wait to enjoy those freedoms, too. Getting there! :-)

      Probably not worth trying to find those answers. Curiosity killed the cat after all! ;-)

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  5. This article makes total sense. For me, it is not my FOO to blame but my spouse's and I have had an interesting seat to watch all this unfold as we both go no contact with his family. I am glad to have come to this conclusion, of no contact being best, after two years of nothing but drama with them. Verbal, emotional and mental abuse circulate through the family like a catching virus. The only way out is to run- no contact is the best thing that's happened to our marriage. And you know what? I have found peace in the knowledge I have found in this site and others. They will never change, they will never be truly sorry for what they've done to their son or to me. We are now expecting our first child, their first grandchild and they will never be a part of that kid's life. Playing the victim gets them nowhere and what resonates with me is that.... it's totally true they don't even care anymore. They miss the cycle of abuse and having my husband to follow orders. They don't miss him. They keenly feel the pain of not being able to manipulate me or our child. Not being a part of our lives. It's really very sad. Thank you so much for this article and to those starting the no contact process- hang in there. It really does get better.

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    1. Thanks for sharing your story, Anon. It helps me to know that things are better for you - I wonder if things will be better for my spouse when I go no contact.

      It's also great to have the perspectives of ACoN-spouses like you and Jonsi (have you visited her blog? Links on the right of the page...) to give that valuable insight to those ACoNs who are stuck in the "FOG" (Fear-Obligation-Guilt) of their FOO's. Our NParents really can twist the knife like no one else - it's hard to see clearly sometimes. We often note that it's easier to see clear through other people's family dysfunction than our own!

      Appreciate the comment - please continue to share! Your perspective really is an important one! :-)

      I have a follow-up question (if I may): Do you worry about Grandparent's Rights Legislation (mostly USA/Canada)? Might not need to if your child hasn't formed a pre-existing relationship with your spouse's parents. (It's something that worries me, which is why I'm curious!). ;-)

      Welcome here!

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    2. Thanks for posting my comment. :) And your kind response. To answer your question- yes, it worries me. :( A lot, actually. I looked up the actual laws that govern our state and have found the chances of this being a possible problem for us are slim- I am not an unwed mother, we are not divorced and considering the amount of contact and distance, they are 6 hours away from us... I'd say no judge in their right mind would find grounds to give them any sort of visitation rights. I'm not putting it past my in laws that they would not try for this in the future. Considering they have been so neglectful to my husband since he has been with me, we could potentially prove in court they do not have our child's best interest at heart, nor ours. No contact other than guilt tripping their son for over a year, people attesting that they scowled through our wedding and didn't so much as sign a guest book (only guests there that did not)- didn't give their son anything for his wedding. Sadly the abuse happened in person, I was unable to record any of it. Many people who care about us can attest to what was heard though, especially over phone calls as they were so loud and rude it wasn't hard to overhear.
      Being a spouse to someone who has had to go no contact has put me in a good perspective, I feel, of what has to happen for a 'normal' life to take place after coming from such a family. I think our lives will be much better with them out of it completely. It's been a struggle to be unbiased, especially after facing such abuse myself just by being the scapegoat to their black sheep son. It was always my fault for his sudden unwillingness to be at their beck and call a state away when he had his own job and was starting a life with me. In the course of one horrible afternoon, I overheard my FMIL yelling that I was controlling everything and twisting DH's opinions and a real b*tch. Hours later when we met in person she tried to reassure me that she knows I 'wouldn't do that' when I brought it up point blank after overhearing her voice on the phone with her son. It's so clear to me that they know what they're doing is wrong. They were mad my parents found out because they overheard DH's parents yelling at him over the phone when we were visiting them.
      I could go on and on with all they've done to sabotage our marriage and even my academic career by calling up my school and posing as my family to ask questions about me. (no joke) As a spouse to a guy going through all this, I can say my job is probably best served as the only person closest to my husband who has his best interest at heart. I feel it's my duty to stay with him and help him to the other side. I want to encourage all spouses of ACoN's to do the same. If you are not speaking the truth and providing comfort to your spouse during this time- honestly, who will? I know so many women afraid to do just that in fear of losing their man over loyalty to his family.

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    3. Wow, fantastic insight. I never considered that some wives/spouses may not want to risk jeopardizing a relationship with the in-laws by siding strongly with their husband/partner... I hope that's a minority. That would be tragic. Good call on calling others to take the high road as you have! :-) I like that.

      I can't believe they'd call up your school to get dirt on you! That's beyond insane! And yet it's VERY TYPICAL - this story, which varies in detail, is repeated all over the internet where NParents are concerned. It's always surprising, however!

      The words OWNERSHIP and CONTROL cannot be overused in discussions about NParents. Take away their ability to control and question/refute their 'ownership' of you (or your spouse! Or your children!), and you can watch someone go from quirky/self-absorbed to DANGEROUS in seconds flat!

      Ownership and control. This is all they want. They want to keep you where they need you in the role they want you to play. I wonder how aware of this they are!

      Thanks for answering my questions on the "Grandparent's Rights" front! It sounds like you've done the same sort of research I have. You're only really screwed if you're divorced or single and the children have had previous visits with your parents. And even THEN, I still think that the lion's share of the work is theirs to prove that you're unfit as a mother, etc. I pray that this never unjustly happens to an ACoN. I can't think of anything worse than not being able to protect your children from your own abusers. (And yet my NM loses it when I won't take abuse from her NF, go figure! I guess not all mothers care about their young!). :-p

      Thanks for discussing this! I'm glad I'm not the only one who frets and fears the "Grandparent's Rights" movement. It really is disturbing!

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    4. In my search for answers and support, I have found at least a few groups of spouses dealing with toxic in laws, many of them by all standards probably very much N-type people. It really opened my eyes to see the possibility of my own in laws being narcissists that changed my entire perspective and gave me peace about things we had to do as a couple- no contact, mainly. Sadly, many many women are urged (especially in Christian settings, I find) to listen to their husbands and not to come between him and his family even if it is to speak up on a relationship that is hurting your husband. I've been told by my well-meaning family and pastors to do just that- suffer through it silently. For the sake of my 'children' or my 'husband' when I knew in my heart it wasn't right. When I realized they were N's, I saw what I had to do and stepped up to the role of support and spectator, someone outside the family looking in, to help my husband. I really believed it saved our relationship. Speaking from a Christian perspective, (I understand those who are not Christians) I can say that I believe marriage is a God-given partnership. If one captain of the ship is sinking, is it really wise for the other to stand by and watch to assuage the drama that may unfold? Um no ;) Realizing I could see through the games N's were playing better than my husband, I found peace in myself as I gently pointed these games out to him and helped him see that no, it's not normal- family doesn't do that! I'd like to say it's helped a lot, although I know he keenly feels the loss of his parents and is full of anger and hurt since they have let him down by their actions.
      I too, wonder if they realize the extent of their actions and words. It's clear they WANT them to hurt us and cut us down, but do they realize how effin crazy they sound?!
      I hear you on the Grandparent's rights- I can't think of anything scarier to me than to watch my in laws hold my baby. The thought sends shivers down my spine! I've seriously had nightmares about this.

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    5. Ephesians 5:32:
      "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

      You'd THINK a pastor would point this out! "A Man LEAVES his Parents".... LEAVES! Separates! Individuates!

      I think it's fantastic that you searched your heart, soul and mind and came to the conclusion that what was best for your husband, as well as you and your family, was to limit the amount of control the previous generation has.

      It's difficult, I know. My DH's family is wonderful. They are inspirational and wise and kind. And they're NOT overly involved in our lives at all! :-) Just the right amount! (Always leave them wanting more, right?!). ;-)

      It is THESE parents that are worthy of praise and admiration and consideration! My parents, in contrast, don't do anything with anyone's best interests at heart but their own. I don't think that's how Jesus intended us to operate!!! ;-) The Golden Rule is truly golden, and everyone can follow it regardless of their faith and beliefs:

      DO TO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU!

      If I was acting like a controlling, manipulative cow, I would want my child to grow away and be free of my tyranny, too. ;-)

      But seriously, if only everyone made an effort to do this. Life would be much better, wouldn't it?! :-)

      (I have the same Grandparents-holding-my-baby nightmares, and I'm years off having a baby! It's actually what drove me to therapy - I knew my life was entering a new phase, and all I could see was these horrifying images of me not being able to protect my own family!)

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  6. Wow, I cannot tell you how much I needed this post right now! I've been NC since Feb. 2011 w/NP's, NSis and LC with my enabling/'rescuing'/sometimes SG brother.

    I think what resonates the most with me is the uneasiness I feel when talking to him and the false hopes I'm still hanging onto that maybe one day he will truly see my side, that I'll have one ally, that something I say about NFOO will get back to them and they'll want to change and have me back. No matter how strong I was to finally say 'Enough!' and go NC, I'm still fighting that lost little girl inside that just wants to be wanted. *sigh*

    But based on what I've learned in this post and the triangle post (Persecutor/Rescuer/Victim), I am just fighting a losing battle. My brother is just like them - playing both sides for his own benefit . . . . and here I am getting used and ending up frustrated in the process!

    Might be time for me to fully leave the game and stop trying to leave my foot. . . or even my big toe. . . in the door of dysfunction. :-P

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    1. Hey BrahsWorld,

      Welcome! Hey, I agree with you - nothing's going to change if you're still there playing your role. However....

      If you left, and your "sometimes SG" brother is the only SG around... he's going to get it. Big time. It'll take awhile for the NFOO to switch off of you, but it sounds like they'll take him as #2 SG as needed!

      Now obviously this is optimism talking, but there's a chance your brother might come around (in time . . . years, I would bet it would take!) to seeing things your way! But he'd have to be put through the ringer like you were, first.

      It was (is) a hard lesson for me to learn that ANY interaction with my NParents automatically means I'm playing their game, their way. I tried everything to change that, but nothing worked. I'll bet I'm still not 100% done with trying to find another way to make it 'work out better'. We'll see!

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    2. Oops, sorry BrashWorld, for the misspelled name!

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  7. Same anon- question for you all:
    Is it common for N's to have had many marriages in their lifetimes? Just wondering here. DH's grandmother is on her 4th marriage and she's only 60- besides the man DH knew as grandpa- all others did not die, she divorced them. Never wondered this before but the family all defends it as for her own good- I feel she was simply moving on from on to the other. Thoughts?
    Another trend I have noticed is that many, many N's tend to hide behind religion, especially Christianity. Is this also common?
    A third thing I've noticed is that many N's are either very wealthy or claim to be poor in order to rely more on their adult children. With my in laws, they are very wealthy- making it that much easier for family to flock to them for their needs and by doing so be in debt to them. They have set up trusts for all their children binding them til they die, I feel this is just another way to force their adult children to keep in contact with them as the kids are responsible for the trusts these parents have set up and continually have 'problems' with, legally and otherwise that mandate communication. My in laws built their mansion so that each child's room could serve as a separate suit if they and their families needed to come back and live with N-rents in adulthood.

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    1. I'll field those questions (any other takers, jump right in!!!). :-)

      I can only speak of my familiarity with the "ACoN existence" at large, and books I've read, etc., so I'm talking just off the top of my head (disclaimer). ;-)

      1. Yes, it's extremely common for Narcissists to jump from one relationship to the next! Can probably even find you a reference for that one: http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/01/living/wedding-marriage-splits/index.html

      quote from that:
      "Narcissists lack self-esteem and live in an internal world, one that they can attract another person to and form a relationship around because they can read other people and manipulate them. It becomes a parasitic relationship, with all of the affection going to the narcissist, McWade said."

      2. Yes, I've heard MANY parents hide behind false humility/Christianity! I actually have the opposite experience myself (my NParents are "too smart" for faith! Ha! And miserable buggers they are, too!), but I've asked this question myself about some of the hypocritical Bible-thumping NParents out there! Can they TRULY believe in Jesus and God if they put their own needs so highly above those of others? Is this the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives? Not questions for me to answer, I think, but questions worth mediating on all the same!

      A great resource for Christian ACoNs abused by other self-proclaimed "Christians" is Luke 17:3 Ministries, where Sister Renee Pittelli and others know all too well about folks who abuse the "Honour Thy Mother and Father" line! ;-) Highly recommend you check out Luke 17:3 ministries regardless of your faith - Sister Renee is AWESOME! :-) http://www.luke173ministries.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=39548&PID=466753

      3. Yeah, I've seen this one all too often. It has happened to me, actually - wealthy NParents, since they're not just starting careers or raising children, have wads of cash and disposable income. This gets to be a concern of many who are worried that their parents will woo away the grandchildren by bribery (which works GREAT on little minds!). But yes, NEVER BORROW MONEY FROM A NARCISSIST! They will consider you as their PROPERTY, as if you PAWNED YOUR SOUL, until you pay it back! And you may not even be allowed to pay it back - it may become a 'gift' as soon as you can relinquish that debt... in which case, you're indebted because of their extravagant gift....! Couldn't find a really good reference, but this great article by Dr Linda Martinez-Lewi addresses it briefly: http://blog.thenarcissistinyourlife.com/2012/02/07/narcissistic-parents---buying-off-their-children--this-is-not-love-.aspx


      If you haven't already read it, this is ACoN Gospel:
      http://parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

      ;-)

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    2. I think #1 could also explain why the N-rents are still married- they feed into each other instead of sucking each other dry! The more I read the more I feel it has to be one or the other with an N-marriage, both parties have to be equals or someone leaves. I LOVE Luke 17:3 ministries. :) I think I read on that site the statement that when two N's marry they gang up on others instead of getting divorced because it's toxicity times two. That just blows my mind! One would think two Narcs in one house would cause it to implode- but nope, they thrive!
      Your thoughts on money or lack thereof really hit home to me! It's interesting to see how the family dynamic plays out among the children of narcs when money isn't an issue for them. The golden child gets the gifts (sometimes I feel, more than one golden child) the scapegoat gets none or if anything, they get the 'gifts' that are all strings attached and told to be bloody well thankful because it was a generous gift to begin with haha. It's really apparent in my own history with these people. The rents are in charge of everything financial on behalf of their golden children. Closeness is rewarded with gifts and money and extending the blessing of wealth to their adult child's friends so they can also enjoy the lifestyle N's are used to. I think it's a dream come true for my NMIL to have a son with Asperger's and make him entirely dependent on the family instead of encouraging him to live up to the reality of him living on his own. I also find it ironic that my husband is the only son of three that does NOT have a criminal record. And yet the others are rewarded for such selfish lifestyles that cause others, mainly my husband the scapegoat, to suffer?
      Thanks for sharing the ACoN Gospel! :) I'll take it as a handbook of what kind of mother NOT to be!

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  8. I was not familiar with the triad concept but it is really eye-opening. I have read a lot on your blog and am learning so much. I will probably spend many more hours here reading :-). Thanks for setting up this blog!

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