I've been away from the keyboard (AFK, as Sheldon would say!), so I was a little behind on posting comments (apologies to those stuck wondering what happened to their comments they submitted!).
SCW had posted something that spurred me to write a quick post (on 'Ignored, then Engulfed, then Ignored, then Engulfed'). Being an "Ignored" type of ACoN sounds to me to be a dreadfully bleak and lonely existence, and often times there appears to be great differences to the experiences of "Engulfed" (or "Enmeshed") ACoNs.
I'll post my reply to SCW's original comments here, rather than rewriting it again:
I *think* I can relate to the 'ignored' stance of ACoNism, but I don't want to profess to know your situation because it really is different to mine in many ways.There really was nothing so bitter, so painful to me than when I willingly (and unknowingly - these were the days before I had learned about NPD!) allowed my life to be completely absorbed by an intermittently ignoring mother who had little to no interest in my life until this time, only to have her be as distant and cold as ever. Cold. Disinterested. Jealous. Distracted.
But recently I got another message from my FOO saying that they understand that I don't want a "close relationship" with them. I laughed sarcastically when I read it - there is nothing I wanted more than to be CLOSE to my parents! But they NEVER gave me the opportunity! They've ignored me, me the person, me with the feelings and thoughts and hopes and dreams, ASSIDUOUSLY for DECADES!
They want to be CLOSE (as in proximity), but as for a real, true, loving relationship? They either don't have that capacity, or they're not interested in investing in it.
So yeah - they're right in that I DO NOT want to be 'close' by their definition. There was nothing so painful as to be completely engulfed by my NM and utterly, utterly invisible at the same time. That was the worst part for me. That's when the tide started to turn and I started to really, seriously dislike her. The ultimate betrayal - she'll take everything, she'll invade every where, and she'll still look right past you and start her own conversation when you're in the midst of baring your soul to her!
It was as if she was trying on a pair of my shoes and my glasses and a few articles of clothing and 'trying on' my life for fit. She had no interest in me, me the human being, that is. Just my life. She wanted my life. She wanted to occupy my life, but there was no room, still, for me in it.
This was when the proverbial tide started to turn, leading me inexorably to desperate searches on the internet to explain her hurtful and bizarre behaviour. I can't tell you how utterly invalidating, dismissive and cruel it was to finally have the full and dedicated interest of my ice-cold mother, only to discover that she still had ZERO regard for me. I bared my soul to her. I told her everything (oh, the things I regret sharing!). Everything! All my fears, quirks, hopes, dreams, sex life details, work life details, friendships, shopping habits, everything! I gave it all away, ALL OF IT, in the hopes that she would love me like a mother should.
Did she? No. It wasn't a dramatic scene to bear witness to, I'm sure. But my soul died a little on that day. And then it decided that it couldn't go on like this anymore.
I wanted to share this quick reflection for any ACoN who would be delighted to suddenly 'matter' to their ice-parents; be very careful for what you wish for! It might come true, and in this case, it'll come true in a way you really could do without. There was nothing worse for me than getting my hopes up that my NM and I could be 'close'. I wasn't asked to hand over everything to her - I did it all willingly, naively, stupidly believing her motives to be . . . well, for lack of a better word, 'normal'.
These aren't normal people. Never forget that, and it might prevent you from falling into a trap best left side-stepped. Spend time with them if you like, but know that they're never, ever going to be 'there for you' the way you need them to be. I think if they could, they would have by now.
Maybe there aren't so many differences between being ignored and being engulfed. Superficially the differences are many, but at the core of the NParent is the same distant, icy persona that does not care about you. They will 'care' about you to the extent that anyone glancing upon your relationship will not immediately notice glaring voids and holes. And sometimes they are so rotten they won't even bother keeping up appearances. Either way, they don't truly care about you and they probably never will. A tragic fact, but one worth hanging on to. It might prevent you from being horribly deceived, as I was.
I'm sorry you had to offer your soul on a platter to your mother before you could know who she was.
ReplyDelete"Superficially the differences are many, but at the core of the NParent is the same distant, icy persona that does not care about you."
Spot on.
Awareness of that is extremely important.
I'll still take ignoring over engulfing any time for those superficial differences.
Me too! Though I think I understand that being completely and utterly invisible to your FOO, not mattering at all, EVER, could be quite head-wrecking in a different way. I know if I was judiciously ignored ALWAYS, as if I wasn't there, I would have acted out SO BADLY just to get some attention! :-(
DeleteIce people. With icicle hearts. Just in time for Christmas...!
OK, how about this: ignored, but enmeshed. How's that for jacked up?
ReplyDeleteMy NM ignored me but expected me to regularly call or show concern for her. If I didn't, the next time I did she'd be really cold and withdrawn. Or sometimes when I did, she'd be so glum I'd wonder why I bothered. When I was in my twenties, she never, NEVER, phoned me. I kept a calendar. If I didn't phone her, at least once a week, if I ever let two weeks go by, I'd hear from my NF, or a sister, that "Mom is really hurt you don't check in with her." How about that for really f-ing you up? No wonder I had such anger in my twenties and early thirties. After I moved away, same thing. She'd never call. I'd have to be the one who did that work. Always emotional punishment if I didn't do it, and I FELT enmeshed, despite the ignoring of me by both parents. How's that for twisted?
Yeah, that sort of 'twisting' is really the calling card of the Narc, isn't it?!
DeleteSomething for the n00b ACoNs to mull over - if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
If it cries like a victim, blames like a persecutor, acts like it has a heart of stone, derides your self-worth, cares only for itself (despite what it may SAY) . . . it's a narcissist. They're harder to spot because they have so many conflicting 'facets' to them.
Actions > Words!
I'm really sorry you got the guilt trips, too. They're just the most cruel things they can do to a child.
DeleteYour mother sounds exactly like my NM has always been. NO wonder it all led, finally, inevitably, to NC. I think it's the jealousy that does the relationship in. If you're more accomplished than such a mother, you're emotional roadkill.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about jealousy a lot this last week. I feel that my whole FOO is jealous of me and maybe not so much for the fact that I'm more accomplished but because of the fact that I am happy within myself whereas they are not. My FOO had been completely ignoring of me until the minute I became happy, then it was like they knew that I had a hidden treasure and they started to demand I share. I so agree that jealousy kills the relationship, it just chokes it to death.
DeleteEXACTLY! That's what my Psychologist says! I couldn't figure out why a few people in my life (particularly other females my age - I can think of two fantastic examples!) were JEALOUS of me. It was clearly jealousy, but what did I have that they didn't? They were better looking than me. Smarter than me. Had nicer things. Had many friends. Had great jobs. Better skin. Bigger boobs! WHAT ON EARTH could they be jealous of in me?!
DeleteAnd that's exactly the answer my shrink gave - they see me as 'happy'. They envy the happiness they believe me to have!
According to my shrink, I actually have GOOD self-esteem (though I suppose that's relative! I always assumed I had poor self-esteem, but perhaps there are many who have even worse!), which is why I seek therapy and try to change my circumstances for the better. And THAT resilience or self-esteem or whatever you want to call it IS WHAT THEY ARE JEALOUS OF!
All of us here are pulling ourselves out of a pit on our own inner strength (or strength borrowed from a higher power - however you view it!). The Narcs don't have that strength (or don't know that they do - I'm not sure what the case is), and so they RESENT us for it!
Which is just plain STUPID, because generally speaking we're the ones getting hurt in all this! Do they really want to envy our positions? ;-)
Then again - we have HOPE. At present, they don't!
That's the way it is for me too. I'm not ALLOWED to be happy, or content, or satisfied. Somehow, that takes away from their suffering. Or some shit. If I'm not wallowing in their misery, than I'm minimizing it or "throwing my awesome life" in their face. And all I'm doing is trying to get through the day.
Delete"all I'm trying to do is get through the day."
DeleteOne of the most MADDENING things my NParents do to me is wrongfully assume I'm thriving. That I'm blissfully happy and blithely skipping my way through life with ease!
Because quite frankly it's simply not true! I'm bombarded with psychic suicidal tsunamis (sounds great when you say that out loud! He he!), and some days just trying to SURVIVE, let alone SMILE, feels impossible!
I just commented to q1605's comment at the end of "The Game You Cannot Win" addressing this same sort of issue - my NM envies the crap out of me and my life, and it's really one of the most hurtful things. I don't get validation out of being envied for happiness I don't have! Rather, my misery and pain and that empty hole in my heart where loving parents should have been are utterly INVALIDATED!
I swear, Jessie, my NParents aren't happy (relieved?) until they see me cry. The ONLY TIMES my NM has EVER been kind to me has been when I've been miserable. But sometimes I think she knew she caused me to be that way, and so if she could fix it than no one would blame her. Can't tell you all the self-help books she through my way trying to 'help me' overcome depression. It's not that I didn't appreciate the thought, it was more that I recognized that she really didn't like it when I was happy, so......?
There's clinical depression, and then there's what I have: a NM who not-so-secretly wants me to be miserable. :-p We ACoNs really do have interesting challenges, don't we?
I think they assume our life is great because we don't go around playing "professional victim". We're not complaining every second of the day so our life must be awesome. I don't think that my parents have ever seen me when I'm down, (I hadn't realised until I read your comment that that was the case), but come to think of it it makes sense that I never did because when my brother had his nervous breakdown all she went on about was "how hard it was for HER" (never mind my brother hey). So I must have sensed that she wouldn't have been kind to me either. I would have never heard the end of her miseries because she wasn't going to give her position as "top victim" any time. So when I get a "tsunami" -or like I say to my DH: when my brain is trying to kill me- I just go and hide in the cave otherwise known as bedroom- until the feeling passes.
DeleteOne of the things that royally pisses me off about my parents is that in SPITE of what you've just pointed out (they want you to be visibly miserable!), they wouldn't let me claim victimhood!
DeleteI can't COUNT the number of "talks" my NParents gave to me about not feeling sorry for myself, or not "playing the victim"! They psychologically whipped that out of me! That was literally the BULK of their parenting - teaching me that it was wrong to self-pity, and wrong to claim to have been wronged!!!!
It was the worse Catch-22 of all the Catch-22's they put me in! I COULDN'T BE HAPPY, AND I COULDN'T BE SAD!
Want to be a good parent?! DON'T MESS WITH YOUR KID'S EMOTIONS! Those emotions belong to the child - you have NO RIGHT to interfere with what the child feels!
Oh it makes me SO MAD! :-D And I am very HAPPY to feel MAD! I am finally allowed to feel mad! And wronged! And to feel sorry for myself!
And ironically all those 'negative' emotions (I'd argue that no emotion is 'bad' or 'good'!) are the ones that have given me peace and happiness!
QG's bottom line: DON'T INTERFERE WITH THE EMOTIONS OF YOUR CHILD! LET THEM FEEL WHAT THEY FEEL! MIND-CONTROL IS EVIL, EVIL, EVIL!
I suddenly "matter" to the NGC and not in a good way. Now, I just want my drama-free life back.
ReplyDeleteOhhhhhhh, sucks. :-( I'm sorry to hear it. I wonder what spurred on that for him. I wonder if his previous scapegoat flew the coop? Back to good ol' Mulderfan - she's a nice person he can try to take advantage of! ;-)
DeleteSick. It's good to not matter sometimes!!!! :-D I often wish for that! If I'm so AWFUL, why am I the focus of my FOO's attention?! Seriously!
Really sorry to hear it. Here's wishing you PEACE, Mulderfan! Glorious, quiet PEACE!
I too, have bare my soul to my mother, at a time when I thought she might have cared. Same results, it all turned out to be about her and her pain, and things I shared was used against me later to keep me in the "crazy box". I think you nailed it at the end of your post:
ReplyDelete"These aren't normal people. Never forget that, and it might prevent you from falling into a trap best left side-stepped. Spend time with them if you like, but know that they're never, ever going to be 'there for you' the way you need them to be. I think if they could, they would have by now."
If I learned anything from my disastrous vacation holiday last year it was that very thing.
Have you seen "Pieces of April"? It's a movie about "April", the Scapegoat in her family, preparing Thanksgiving dinner for her dysfunctional family, including her dying NM. I just watched this and about bawled my eyes out. It's not that it's "sappy" or even heart wrenching, most of it's actually funny and a bit charming. My husband liked it a lot, I did too, but it meant something different to me, as and ACON. The ending... *warning slight spoiler* is not realistic, but what most people would want to see. I know that this is not what would happen, or has happened with my NM. Most likely, my NM will pass away someday without such closure. But, this type of ending appeals because it is what all ACON's naturally yearn for, but will never receive: approval for being yourself. The movie doesn't exactly spell that out, but, it's implied.
My husband is so sweet. He just turned to me and said, "It's ok to cry." I was trying not to. And then, "You have me and my family, they love you." And it's true, they are wonderful people and they have accepted me like no other people I have met, in this life. I'm so glad we will be going to see them, tomorrow for T-Day. :)
Awww! This is a happy story with a happy ending, then! :-D Enjoy Thanksgiving! You have something wonderful that you are already thankful for - a loving family of choice/marriage! :-)
DeleteYes, I agree that Hollywood always gives us the endings we collectively want to see! It's why I can't stand watching most movies - they're so predictable and unrealistic. I hadn't heard of this particular movie, though - I appreciate the recommendation! And I don't mind the spoiler; knowing it ends in the typical Hollywood fashion has probably prevented me from throwing a bowl of popcorn at the screen in anger! :-) My DH thanks you in advance for preventing the abuse of his beloved flat-screen....! ;-)