There's a lot of buzz in the ACoN community tonight, if you haven't already stumbled across it.
Upsi posted a nasty 'hate' letter she received on her blog: "You Don't Have to Dance for Them - Well, Allow Me to Retort".
I guess I lost the "$20" I bet when I said it was probably written by her NM. I wasn't the only person who thought so, either (see the comment thread here). It was so personal, so cruel and so angry towards Upsi. I reasoned that no one would be so angry at Upsi unless they were a disordered member of her FOO. Upsi's a real sweetheart, very kind and open-minded (to the point where she'll even give Trolls a voice! I won't!). It's next to impossible to imagine anyone, besides her crazy FOO, having an issue with her.
If you read through all the comments, you will have noticed that Charity, of the blog "Healing from Broken", commented supportively and in Upsi's favour about half way down the thread.
She also commented right towards the end, but under a new name - Broken Blogger, formerly misnamed Charity. In this comment, she admits to writing the anonymous comment that attacked Upsi so openly.
I don't/didn't know Charity, but it seems to me that her envy of Upsi and Upsi's blog drove her to the offensive. In the original anonymous attack, she wrote:
She apparently cannot allow herself to grow up out of that awkward unbecoming stage, because if she does, she will lose all of this AcoN blog victim glory.Glory? Hmm. Seems an odd word choice. I don't think I'd see any ACoN's blog as a gleeful basking in the limelight. ACoN blogs are stories of terribly painful personal journeys - they are probably the sort of blogs that no one in their right mind would sit down to 'enjoy'. We ACoNs read the blogs of others to help us make sense of our twisted worlds. 'Glory' is just not the right term.
This comment sounded awfully jealous as well:
because so many of the AcoN bloggers I respect were singing upsi's praises in their comments on her recent posts.There are much more upsetting things said about Upsi, but I don't want to post them here. They shouldn't have been said at all in the first place.
The majority of the letter spoke of the author's own experiences, comparing them to Upsi's to show that she had suffered more (again, competition and envy).
I also read Charity's post in which she comes clean. You can read it here, assuming the blog stays up. I get the feeling that it will. After reading her post, I have to say that I agree with her in that she is "a dangerous person".
What she said to Upsi was inexcusable. It was mercilessly cruel. It was very malignantly narcissistic. Charity was correct to apologise and excuse herself from the ACoN online community, I'll give her that.
One of the things I struggle with is accepting her apology as legitimate. Is she truly remorseful? I hope so. But we as ACoNs know that someone who can be so hateful and who can apologise so readily and easily is someone to be suspicious of. I don't want to judge her, so I'll leave it at that. There is a nagging part of me that wonders if all she really wanted was attention. And if this stunt - cruel letter, public confession and all - is simply an attention-getting scheme. Perhaps even 'narcissistic supply'. I don't know. But it could be.
I think there's a silver lining to the cruel attack on Upsi, if it's not to soon to point it out. This whole fiasco sheds light into unseen dark corners of the ACoN community. So much pain, so much anger - and throw in legitimate mental disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar or general psychotic tendencies. . . I don't know. It's hard to be overly sympathetic, but clearly Charity is in a really bad place. She says she has a husband, and an observant one by the sound of it, which settles my mind. She's not alone or isolated, and if her remorse is genuine, she's aware that she's in some mental distress.
Let's discuss these 'dark corners' of the ACoN community that we fear to tread (and for good reason). Virtually all of us are aware of our 'dark sides', and most of us have this aspect of our psyche under control for the most part. Some of us have either darker dark corners, or more of them, or they have more of a pull on us. Some of us walk in the light and can actively resist the darkness. But the shadows remain, and in them the latent narcissism lurks. So does vindictiveness. Envy. Spite. Maliciousness. In the darkness, there is evil.
It's worth remembering that even my NM qualifies as an "ACoN". Not all "ACoNs" resist the pull to the dark side (malignant narcissism). Perhaps some are pulled more strongly, others have little traction with which to resist, and I think the few of the ACoNs who qualify as sociopathic don't feel the need to resist the pull. (From a Christian viewpoint, we all have 'sin' in us. All people can be ruled by sin, not just ACoNs. It is right to fight against the darkness).
I also suppose it's entirely possible that an ACoN can join the online community and start out with good intentions, only to slip into the darkness. (Star Wars always comes to mind when I think about these things - look what became of cute little Anakin SkyWalker; he grew into the evil Darth Vader).
Think of the struggle you are going through currently (and if it's been going on for awhile, reflect on the early days). I wrote a metaphorical post about what that process feels like to me (read it here). In order to break free, you have to endure even more pain. Maybe some of us legitimately break under that additional pressure, I don't know. I still believe it is worth the fight, though. Your psyche/soul is always worth fighting for!
I hope it's not a permanent change for Charity, but I do applaud her decision to remove herself from our 'community'. I don't like to think she's isolating herself (she very clearly needs serious professional help, pronto!), but I do think that leaving is a good idea. Trust is broken, and someone was hurt.
In fact, I'd even say I was hurt - I know the message was for Upsi, but I felt like the same could have been said to me. Hateful comments like Charity's hurt all ACoNs alike. As if we need any more doubt in our minds that our parents were cruel to us! Charity gaslit all of us with her hateful message. I really do want to have sympathy for her, but I also fear becoming prey as 'narcissistic supply'. She is a danger, as sad as that is.
Do we shun a fellow ACoN from our community? Her decision to step away was the right one, and it saved us having to make a difficult decision. In Charity's own words:
Now that I know I am not sane enough to be safe in a community of wounded people, I will stop posting on this blog, and I will also stop commenting on other ACoN blogs. I am not a fake, I am truly an Adult Child of two viciously malignant narcissists. But I now have to face the horrible reality that I have some really bad Narcissistic Fleas of my own that I did not consciously know I had, until now.We must support each other. We must not tear each other down. We must be tolerant, compassionate, kind - all the things our NParents were not. We must take care of our own selves, though, and exercise good and healthy boundaries. Self-care comes first, always. It's not selfish to do so. It's only selfish to not help someone when you have care to spare.
Who am I? What am I? Where do I fit, in a mostly black-and-white world of Us against Them, Compassion versus Narcissism? Right now, I don't seem to fit in anywhere. I am a stranger to myself. I have too many faults of my own, to judge anyone. I no longer trust my own mind. I no longer trust my own judgment.
Charity made a grievous error in assuming that the written words of Upsi's parents represented their true nature. I could post a message from my NM on here that would make me sound like a spoiled brat, too. But only I know the context in which to judge the message. Be careful not to judge, dear ACoNs. You may judge incorrectly. And who knows - maybe that's all the 'evil one' needs to pull you to the dark side forever.
Maybe it was just such a thought that turned our ACoN parents into full-blown malignant narcissists.
I have some hope for Charity - she was able to admit to her guilt and apologise for it. I don't believe she's completely free of the danger, however. The dark side will keep pulling, as it does in all of us.
Let this horrible day stand in our memories. The darkness is ever-present; we must continually resist it.
Amen.
ReplyDeleteI should have thought to come here first and see what you were "sellin'" (figure of speech) as you have more eloquently said what I feel even better than I could!
I do not have the gift of expression/writing as you do.
Thank you for bringing this event front-and-center. It very much needs to be discussed.
Thank you for blogging and for spreading awareness.
In response to your post directly, I would just have to say please see the reply I just posted on the upsi thread called, "Most Humane": http://upsi-upsi.blogspot.com/2012/10/most-humane.html#comment-form.
That is what went through me after reading both upsi's posts, and the entire Charity blog.
Oh, SCW! You give yourself too little credit! ;-) Your comment was very well expressed. I think you and I are very close in how we view things, so perhaps it's just a case of 'taking the words right out of my mouth'!
DeleteI wish you would tell any of my teachers or profs that I have a 'gift' - I continually disappointed them! Maybe you just like the way I write because we think alike (did your English teachers think your work was 'crap', too?!). ;-) Kindred spirits!
I write now 'cause I can. And look - people read! Can't be THAT terrible! (Eat that, Miss _______! Bet my blog gets more reads than yours! Content, Miss _______, not flowery, artful prose on nothing!!!). Tee hee!
Ha! Take THAT, Miss ___________!
DeleteTaking the words out of someone's mouth implies that they actually HAD words to be taken. I have the WORST time finding words for what's going on inside. It is a complete struggle sometimes. It was easier when I was younger and had a fresher brain. This is why I'm a lurker and not a blogger.
:)
Seems Charity deliberately chose upsi for her sweetness and vulnerability. She used the knowledge that upsi posts all comments as a way to get the attention she obviously craves.
ReplyDeleteIf Charity wants attention badly enough to craft such an evil attack, it immediately makes her "apology" suspect. The cynic in me thinks she is now reading our reactions and reveling in receiving even more attention.
Upsi and I started blogging around the same time, yet I have never received a single negative comment. Like upsi, I would have posted them. Why do these creeps pick on upsi? Because she represents the best in all of us and these sick fucks can't bear to see what they'll never have...a pure loving heart.
Well said, Mulderfan. I have been blogging for quite some time now too and I think in all that time, I've gotten only two relatively negative comments. I too, would post them if I got them. And I think you're right about Upsi - she's every(narcs) favorite target. Maybe because she's a beacon for all of us. She could be the poster child for all ACoNs, Upsi is what ACoNs aspire to be! So the ones who aren't going to make it out attack her because she represents precisely who they want to be, but they know they'll never make it.
DeleteLike the post you did a while back about the lobsters in the lobster pot that try to pull the ones who are escaping back in. It's in their nature to do it.
I agree - the darkness is there, ever present. We learned from the best, after all.
ReplyDeleteI talk on my blog A LOT about stalking back your stalker - (narc back your narcer??) because I have quite a bit of anger towards these evil assholes. It would be a fun game to ME. BUT BUT BUT - I do also understand that doing so would force me to embrace the 'dark side' - and I would become a bit more like THEM. And this is a real worry.
The 'Charity Kerfuffle' (and this blog post) is a real reminder that we are very few steps away from becoming that which made us. The student can become the master, of both good and evil.
I am (or really, was) a master manipulator. I had to actively quit the behavior and re-quit the behavior on and on, because it made me like my NF and it made me feel sick to my stomach. It has to be a conscious decision to both MOVE AWAY from the narcs, and then to heal from their influence.
Thanks QG - you have given me much to ponder this mornng.
I for one would like to see us NOT run Charity out of the community. She's been struggling with meds, as had loss after loss after loss, feels severely guilty about her own son. I think she has had weeks of emotional confusion and medication misfires. I believe her to be goodhearted. I don't believe she envies Upsi's prominence in our community. That's not what set her off. I think she got caught up in "comparing" pain, and had a momentary terrible lapse in judgement. I can tell from her post that she abjectly regrets what she's done. I believe that. I personally want her to hang in with us. I think she needs to do so as an act of her trust of us, that we are capable of forgiving this kind of misstep. She caused emotional pain to Upsi. She lost her focus and perspective on the wide variety of wounds we all carry. She felt deep shame that Upsi might think the comment came from a family member, and that shame led her to confess to what she'd done. It took moral courage to do that. Please let's not run her out of town on the proverbial rail. Too many of our own parents have done that when we've made confused and regrettable mistakes. Whether or not Upsi can forgive her is entirely up to Upsi; but I hope the ACoN community can avoid groupthink, and see Charity as the struggling, all too human, and badly hurting human being she is.
ReplyDeleteWonderful, wonderful points, CS. This is more in tune with my thinking - playing a hard line on her would be ganging up and would be eerily reminiscent to narc-behaviour.
DeleteMy hope is that Charity takes a bit of a step back, to mitigate whatever's really getting to her, and then slowly but surely earn back trust. I think you're right - it's good of us to show her a second chance, but I also think it's good for her to work at becoming a member of a community again. I think it will give her some sense of self-control and worthiness if she decides to come back, slowly and gently.
I see regret as well. In my own mind, I see this whole debacle reflecting poorly on me - my trust is not easily given again once it has been broken. Perhaps this is an unwanted legacy of my ACoN upbringing. Or perhaps it's prudent.
Either way, I think Charity did what she could and should do in apologising and in taking a step back for some time.
There is a good rule to apply in working with troubled people - if they misbehave, they are excused/dismissed. But they are always welcome back another day if they return. This sets firm boundaries, but it also doesn't ostracize the one in the wrong. Troubled people may need community the most. It is good to show compassion. It is also good to practice strong boundaries, too.
I move that we as a community apply this 'rule' in our minds to all ACoNs. A metaphorical time-out if you can't play nicely, but they're always welcome to come back if they want to play nicely again.
If someone really cannot play nicely (i.e. they are repeat offenders), perhaps it would be wise to interact with them less or not at all. But let's not cross this bridge prematurely - we might hurt 'our own' in the process.
(The Bible says:
DeleteWarn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned...Titus 3:10-11
Everyone slips up from time to time. Charity REALLY slipped up, and she maliciously hurt an innocent person. I think she was really wanting a ton of support and wasn't getting it - I do believe she envied Upsi's support. I think that this is itself somewhat forgivable - she was crying out for help and love, desperately. It didn't quite manifest, so she turned and did something most egregious.
As to the things she said to Upsi, that's Upsi's prerogative if she'd like to forgive. I'm not sure how easily I would forgive in Upsi's shoes! So this is not the matter for discussion. We need only concern ourselves as the 'community' as a whole.
When in doubt, go with the Biblical wisdom - this is my philosophy).
I find you guys far too charitable, no pun intended. I've been around narcs far too long I guess. The ones in my life, especially NM, had an instinct for knowing when they'd stepped over the lines and toned it down for a bit.
DeleteAs a recovering alcoholic I've learned I must be responsible for my actions drunk or sober, especially when they've hurt others. IMO, to excuse Charity, is to enable her and it's a disservice to people, like upsi, who came out the other side as decent human beings.
This is also an invaluable point, perhaps one that most of us would rather not express (it takes guts to say these things, Mulderfan!).
DeleteGood pun, btw!
Well, I tend to agree with you as well. I think both points of view play into this - clemency, in the beginning. The instant a pattern emerges, change tactics. The trouble is that the judgment of Charity of a narc might be wrong (I admit, it does seem suspicious behaviour, though).
It's the same problem with the 'death penalty' - far too many people have been wrongly convicted! My NParents wrongly convicted me and attributed motives to me that were just not true! I can't in good conscience do the same to someone I don't know personally.
So I've decided that my personal stance on this fiasco will be to walk the line between dismissal and clemency. I'm sticking to the Bible quote - warn a divisive person ONCE. This is my warning.
She deserves a second chance in my mind, but just ONE. If, and I agree with Jessie, the 'red flags' mark a legitimate malignantly narcissistic nature, then I'll step away from Charity for my own safety - not as a punishment, and not to hurt her.
QG, You remind me so much of myself back in the day. So afraid of being abandoned or triggering a rage, I never expressed a strong opinion of my own. At most, I was "brave" enough to see both sides.
DeleteEven if I disagreed with my husband and daughter, I'd start out by saying, "Please don't be mad at me, but..." Needless to say, narcs and bullies ate me alive!
It's OK to disagree with me because I am not a narc! I don't have to be right every time nor do you have to agree with everything I say, because we are EQUALS!
I like that. :-) In fact, I hadn't noticed that I was afraid to disagree with you. I was spending so much time trying to come to a peaceful and harmonious arrangement for everyone.
DeleteCrap. Looks like I'm still mentally playing "peacemaker". Got a ways to go down the ol' ACoN Road, eh? ;-)
Hmm. Maybe I can get you and Ruth's help in writing that post I've wanted to do for so long, but am not qualified to write alone - the general steps along the ACoN journey. The fact that I'm still trying to make sure everyone's taken care of, and the fear of being rejected for having a different view, is still strong in me, though I know I've made significant progress still.
Maybe it's a post we can all write together, as a quorum. Individual differences will stand out with only a few people, but will probably resolve with a greater population.
Hmmm - I'm going to have a think on how best this can be done. I really would like to "map out the path" with the caveat that different people walk the route differently, though there are certain landmarks that we all have in common. ;-)
Thanks for the compliment, Mulderfan. You give me great hope!
See, that didn't hurt at all! One step at a time, even if they're baby steps (and this one wasn't) and you'll be flying solo in no time!
DeleteI've posted something similar to what I'm about to say on Upsi's blog, but wanted to comment here too. What if this woman did just momentarily slip? What if she "gave into the darkness" and then realized she'd done something horrible. Don't we always talk about narcissism being a pervasive pattern of behavior? While I have seen some red flags from Charity, I've also found her interactions with me to be supportive and kind and caring.
ReplyDeleteAnd in reading her blog, I have often seen a woman who is, indeed, very very broken. She often is very hard on herself and beats herself up regularly. She really struggled to share and be honest. I also saw a woman who slipped in and out of some narcissistic tendencies, as I believe we all do and have at one time or another.
In the end, the incident really scared me and upset me. I struggle so much in my life to trust people, be open, and I also beat myself up for "not saying the right thing". I am so measured and over analytical in what I say, and then I spend days worrying that everyone will think I'm a bad person (to say the least.)
I saw in this woman someone who is very sick. Whether it be medication induced, or not, the outcome is the same. It in NO WAY excuses her behavior but I think I would need more than one transgression to label her as a horrible person. She did put my guard up, I am wary of her, and her outburst scared me. And I also found her statements to Upsi, to apply to me too, and that hurt. To feel invalidated in this community is a huge transgression and something that she (and we) should not take lightly.
I really think the situation allows us all to reflect and think about some very serious issues.
I agree wholeheartedly.
DeleteI was reading some of Charity's blog, and her mother being insanely threatened by her development into a woman - that all happened to me, too. My NM wouldn't qualify as a sociopath like hers would, however. But it's so similar... really freakishly similar!
Maybe this is the wake-up call we all need, in a way. Are we light-years apart from the N's in our life? Or are we just a few transgressions, then a stable pattern away from becoming what we hate?
I think Charity's fall shows us just how easily it can happen. I really hope she fights back and comes back into the 'harmless' side of the equation.
Seeing both sides. Up and down still some how its loves illusion I recall.
ReplyDeletePart of a song I remember from my teen years. I had a huge emotional reaction to what occurred at upsi's. I knew part of that reaction was from my past. I call this powder kegging. A violent reaction with little or no provocation usually means a volcanic unaddressed past occurrence is supercharging the issue. I believe in giving people chances, I also learned that I need to protect myself during the process. Each person will need to decide for themselves what they can or can not handle. Some will back away completely, others will cautiously re-engage, while others have sympathy with Charity and embrace her. I plan to write my own post to hopefully process what this incident meant for me. By the way, what ever post you write, I don't think you need anyone's help to get it started. Comments will enrich and expand ideas from where you start. I believe you are not giving yourself enough credit.
Excuse me? "A fall"? I respectfully disagree. This is a PD'd individual who has a psychiatric hx. dating back to adolescence resulting in multiple admissions to inpatient, outpatient, ER psychiatric treatment, numerous trials of multiple psychotrophs and combinations thereof. Many people, Professional and others have endeavored in good faith to assist this individual to no avail.
ReplyDeleteCluster Bs are notoriously resistant to assistance of ANY kind. Their highly manipulative behavior and it's adaptivity ensures their "needs" are met at the expense/through the exploitation of others, leaving in their wake a path of destruction that is both massive and heartbreaking to their victims. Our prisons and jails are loaded with Charity Personas who will adeptly explain to you why the victim(s) were in essence the perpetrators or why the Devil made them do it. And you'll believe them. They're THAT "good" and when they foul one nest, they move on to the next. This is a 59 yr. old PD whose practiced MO is "Broken Winger" preying on the compassion, empathy and understanding of others. (Minimally.) Yes, they ARE "dangerous" as well as treacherous.
Respectfully, to ignore this reality, a life time pattern of behavior with it's genesis manifested by adolescence is to lack comprehension of the chronicity, severity and intractability of Cluster B PDs.
TW
Hey TW,
DeleteSo is it the case then that an ACoN with psychosis is automatically going to be a rotter of a PD?
I'm not disagreeing, I'm just wanting to understand. Is it her self-proclaimed adolescent diagnosis of schizophrenia that is the big warning sign, or is that just a supporting fact (and what you were really going on was her behaviour/word choice/actions as a blogger)?
I'm just curious that if I started hearing voices, would I be a malignant narcissist? That doesn't seem logical to me - I think I must be missing a nuance somewhere (or perhaps you know more about Charity than I do - I have only read the blog posts that were still up as of 5 Oct).
(I think you must know more about her because of the comment "Many people, professional and others have endeavoured in good faith to assist this individual to no avail.")
I think that any person is capable of sliding into the "dark side". We all have darkness, hurts, anger, jealousy inside of us that can cause any one of us to make the wrong decision. Sure, us ACON's have to fight a certain type of "darkness" that many people don't relate to, but the "dark side" is very much part of the general human condition, if we let it. I have found that compassion, empathy and caring for others to be a decision, not necessarily a trait we're born with. This may be a controversial opinion, given that our NP's don't seem capable of these traits, by nature. I do believe that these traits do occur more naturally to some people than to others, but I think its a very rare (i.e. sociopathic, psychopathic) person that can't learn compassion and empathy.
ReplyDeleteAs an ACON, my experience with the "dark side" was that I had to teach myself compassion and empathy in the process of my healing. These are my fleas from my NPs. As a child, I remember not feeling much of anything toward anyone, and as a result saying some pretty shocking and probably hurtful things but I hadn't a clue! There are scenes that I look back on from my childhood of things that I said and did to someone and I cringe, now! I feel so bad for the person that I now know I must have hurt. I had not been taught empathy, how would I know what was inappropriate or hurtful? Gradually, I learned to see from others' perspective and from that I learned empathy, compassion and caring by starting to focus on others' experiences and not just my own. I have been lucky enough to have the opportunity to apologize for some of these things I have said and that has helped.
I think a key to empathy that I didn't learn from my NP's (and had to learn for myself MUCH later) is that people aren't perfect, they can't read your mind to behave the way YOU think they should and their emotions are their own and not in any way controllable by you. These attitudes are why my NP's can't be compassionate toward others, because of this need to control other people's feelings. I see this attitude in Charity's anonymous post to upsi, actually and recognized my on NM in it. Any time someone tries to tell you how you should or shouldn't feel, they are displaying the antithesis of empathy.
I'm not saying that Charity didn't know what she was doing was hurtful, she clearly did. However, it's clear to me that she has much more healing to do, and learning empathy is part of that. I hope that she will do some self-reflecting and soul searching to see what she is missing in her healing that caused her to react to upsi in such a way.
Quoting Another Scapegoat: "Any time someone tries to tell you how you should or shouldn't feel, they are displaying the antithesis of empathy."
DeleteExactly! This comment struck a chord with me. My NMIL once told my husband (her son and the family scapegoat) he should feel sorry for his brother and sister, who are both in their 50's by the way, because they don't have what he has. Meaning a happy family, good job, etc. By telling him how he should feel she implied he is somehow responsible for how the lives of his siblings turned out. Her comment left us both scratching our heads. We wondered why she would say such a thing, when their lives are the direct result of choices they've made that had nothing to do with him. So, thank you for summing it up so eloquently. Trying to control his feelings by telling him how to feel IS a direct sign of her lack of empathy. My husband did well in his life in spite of his mother, not because of her. She certainly gave him no guidance along the way in life. He figured things out for himself and she seems to be envious of that fact. The best thing my husband ever did was decide to go NC with NM.
"He figured things out for himself and she seems to be envious of that fact."
DeleteThis comment in turn struck a chord in me! I've seen this in my own NM, and in a friend's NM - envy of the person's 'happiness' but something more than just happiness... I think you nailed it in this comment! :-)
I was speaking to Cluster B's with a substantial psychiatric hx. both in terms of chronicity and severity, not Psychotics. And I remind you to be aware you are relying on self-report by someone who clearly is not a reliable reporter.
ReplyDeleteNo, if you start hearing voices, you will not be anything but a person hearing voices. Nowhere have I said or insinuated an "ACoN with Psychosis is automatically going to be a rotter of a PD."
My comment stands on it's own merits and as it was written. Read into it what you wish.
I'm quite tired of the whole mess and my comment is there to keep, pull, read as it was written or whatever you choose to do. Your place, your space.
Best wishes on your journey.
TW